Hello,

 With Microsoft basically showing us that DOS is no longer the

OS of choice, where do I go? Does Linux support DOS and AREV? I

can't understand why something like DOS and DOS programs that have

ran businesses uninterupted would be replaced by all of this GUI

garbage!

 Maybe I'm being too hard. I don't know. I have people that still

want DOS based programs because they're faster, reliable and accurate.

 Even a GUI interface that looks DOS would be great.

 Any input would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Scott Kapaona

Scott ..

The blunt answer is money. GUI sells hardware big time. Microsoft has to sell software to stay alive. The old DOS environment is hard to maintain in a 32-bit, 64-bit or n-bit world. Memory managment to support DOS gets problematical in the "flat-memory-model" world. DOS uses a segmented memory model (the old 640K issue and various DOS extenders - EMS, etc.). To my best knowledge LINUX / AREV don't play together particularly well. After all it's UNIX underneath it all and THAT was a horror show for MS-DOS programs too.

FWIW, many of my customers who are using our MS-DOS (AREV) version of our product have seen the OI version and are a bit reluctant to upgrade. It's slower for them in a data-entry intensive environment. Windows forces a dialog-box modality for AMV's (given the weakness of the DB_TABLE structure). It's the only sure way we can ensure that the entered data is right before we commit it to disk.

But .. that's the way of the world. Shed a tear .. down a beer.

Don

Well, you do need to plan for the future, but AREV runs on Windows 2000 and XP.

Despite all of the press releases saying that Bill Gates has finally rid himself of DOS with the release of Windows XP, it's not quite that simple.

As far as I can tell, they must be referring to DOS programs that require DOS Real Mode. For example, if you have a DOS program that writes directly to the screen, such as many old DOS games do, you will have problems in the latest Microsoft operating systems. However, AREV is better behaved and does run in the virtual machines that are provided with W2K and XP.

Read the Help files in Windows 2000. It is full of information about DOS, and it is clear that the ability to run DOS programs in Windows 2000 is treated as a feature, not a burden.

My guess is that the first Microsoft OS that will not handle any aspect of DOS will be the 64 bit server software that Microsoft is working on. This is server software though. Not too many applictions require a 64 bit workstation. It would shock me if the 64 bit server OS will not be able to run 32 bit Microsoft code, as MS would not be able to move their current customer base very easily.

With all of this said, sooner or later someone will pull the plug on all 16 bit code, which includes the current version of OI, but that day is not here yet.

Scott, I've looked into this and can recommend some software

that comes close to what you, I and a whole big bunch of others

wish we could have had from RTI. The investment we have in AREV

apps. is VERY difficult to throw away. Not appropriate to carry

on about this here. Please e-mail me [email protected]

I find that AREV runs adequately in Windows XP and Windows 2000.

I can't imagine Microsoft deliberately dropping DOS support in a client OS - you'd be amazed how many Windows-apps occasionally use a "DOS" function to get something done quickly.

The main thing that troubles me - is that for AREV developers, the only option we're given by Revelations is OpenInsight (OI) - which essentially locks us in to another closed platform. At least with AREV I know my app will run in Win 3.1,95,98,ME,2000 & XP. I doubt that OI can make that claim - I'm sure at some point they will be forced to drop support for Win95 or earlier in order to take advantage of WindowsXP and future OS's.

As an AREV developer, I'd be far more inclined to consider OI for development if it was compatible with 3rd-party OCX and ActiveX controls, or with Visual Studio (VB, VC++, etc).

If Revelations came out with a VB or VC++ control which lets me read and write AREV and OI files I'd buy it - at virtually any price - and I'm sure many other AREV developers feel the same way.

Rather than focus on the perceived limitations, lets look at some rather interesting and immutable facts:-

Revelation Software's BASIC has been virtually unchanged since 1983.

The bytecodes in Java and the opcodes in compiled RBASIC pretty much match up. That's how good the language implementation is.

AREV and OI run pretty much under every Windows and DOS incarnation. Even on Macs in some cases.

Revelation Software have sought longevity for all product versions.

OI32 will provide a technically feasible means to connect to LH databases from VB / C++ / Delphi etc. We've already demonstrated solutions employing 32-bit Windows features inside 16-bit OI. You want long filenames, sockets, FTP support, Web support, XML support, Windows API calls? These are presently available inside AREV and OI.

There hasn't ever been a showstopper technical impediment to running AREV/OI on a multitude of network operating systems. Name one other product that has this longevity.

For the last 18 months Mike Ruane has been speaking with developers and users world-wide to listen to their thinking and anticipate their

development strategies and future needs.

The world software market is trying to approach multi-value and elastic data structures in type-less languages. Revelation has provided this for 17+ years.

Nowhere to go? Then open a dialogue with Revelation Software. Sprezzatura are very comfortable with the existing product direction and the technical path. It's by no means a dead market. To say DOS is dead is purely market posturing - not a technical reality.

The 32-bit application platform will be significant globally. Existing large-scale development platforms will be seriously influenced by the advent of OI32.

As Horace once said (probably in the debugger) - "Sapere Aude"

The Sprezzatura Group

World Leaders in all things RevSoft

Scott (and all others)-

First, I'd argue that Microsoft has been trying to show us that DOS isn't the OS of choice since Windows 3.1- their marketing tells us that every new release is absolutely necessary for us to have- see the XP marketing going on now- so their latest DOS comments don't phase me at all. When XP was first announced I was very nervous- I had heard that it would kill all 16-bit apps - but we got on the Beta and Early Release programs and knew back in March that our products would still run.

We are committed to keeping our products running on as many platforms as is practical. We realize how many systems are still running out there in Arev and continue to spend time and money in making sure that they will run on Novell 6 with IP or on XP to a 2000 server. Hell, we've even developed (and are testing) a way that Arev running on NT or better will use 32-bit communication to an NT or 2000 server! You should see the speed.

As we keep moving forward in hardware and OS changes, some of the platforms aren't being actively supported anymore. I mean, come on guys, who is still running windows 3.1, and why? But if you are, I'll bet your Arev or OI system is still running and will continue to run for as long as that machine lasts.

I can't take credit for a lot of this- I've only been in the driver's seat for just over a year. I realize that I'm standing on the shoulders of giants. The management before ours for a long time made sure that the product would keep on running with many new products over the years- starting with the NLM, then the NT service, the NPP and so on. This was not a new idea with Revelation- I just looked at an Arev BUMP screen, and see that we supported: Artisoft Lantastic, Banyan Vines, DEC Pathworks, IBM LAN Server, MS LAN Manager, MS 3.1+ Network, Non Networking, Novell Netware, Novell Netware Lite, and a Novell Selection Fix driver. It's a different world now and the networking arena has trimmed down to two players and we work with them both.

To J Eagan: tell me what you want from RTI. I make a lot of choices about what I think should be in the next release, or which problem we should tackle, but I do it with the input of the community. I'm not going to spend time and resources on something my users don't need or won't buy.

To those who feel that they're 'locked in' by OI- I think we provide the most practical and cost-effective way to get into the GUI world. Once you're in the Windows world a lot of features come more easily- Email, Web access, using other ODBC data Sources, XML- but as Sprezz said, much of this can be done in Arev. We know of users and developers who are using VB or C++ or Delphi to get to their data using the OpenEngine. And regarding OCX and ActiveX and OLE controls- just watch for the future releases of the OI32.

Just as Arev was hands down the best database development platform in the DOS world, I'd like to make OI the best that I can. I have a talented team of devlopers and staff, who all have real world user experience- no Ivory Tower in this joint- who hold no punches. When something stinks, we know. And we fix it.

So, what to do? Given the state of the art today your Arev and RevG apps will continue to run. If you're running Arev 2.03 or better you can take advantage of our Network Products. If you need or want to upgrade to the GUI world, look at OI or JOI. Two very different ways of presenting your data using your existing data, and with a lot of your existing programs.

I encourage our users to read and contribute to this forum- we provide it so our users can talk and exchange ideas, and to let us keep our finger on the pulse of the community. Or, call me directly. 800 262 4747 in the US and Canada, 201 594 1422 everywhere else.

Look for more detail and plans from me in the Letter from the President. We'll be mailing it later this month.

Thanks-

Mike Ruane

Mike asked for feedback from from the developer community so here is my 2 cents (canadian) worth.

What about making the filing sytem available for Linux. Microsoft rules the desktop but Linux is being used more and more for server functions including database servers.

The University of British Columbia (Continuing Studies) offers execellant and inovative programs in internet technologies and business solutions. All of these programs emphasize cross platform skills for Microsoft and open source. I think it would be a great opportunity for oi/arev developers to be able to provide cross platform solutions with Revelation's products.

Aiden-

With OI32, we expect that you'll be able to run the OEngine on Linux, especially since we have a pure tcp/ip communication protocol. We're not actively testing at this time, but we figure we'll be able to do it.

Mike

Aiden,

Since Mike already spilled the beans about Linux, I'd like to ask you a question.

If OpenEngine was implemented to run on a Linux box, but not OpenInsight, would that be usable in the environment you are referring to?

In other words, you still would need a Windows based client to develop your application, but you could serve it entirely from the Linux box.

Pat

]As an AREV developer, I'd be far more inclined

]to consider OI for development if it was compatible

]with 3rd-party OCX and ActiveX controls, or with

]Visual Studio (VB, VC++, etc).

Keep an eye on the next version of the 32-bit OpenInsight.

]If Revelations came out with a VB or VC++ control

]which lets me read and write AREV and OI files I'd

]buy it - at virtually any price - and I'm sure many

]other AREV developers feel the same way.

You can access your AREV/OI data today using 16-bit OpenInsight via the REVCAPI APIs. The same APIs are being ported to the 32-bit version.

There are lots of developers right now using Delphi as the client front-end and OpenEngine as the back-end.

Pat McNerthney

OI32 Grunt Coder

Thanks for asking Mike. I want to retire to a tropical paradise - soon! My plan to achieve this is making money from computer based solutions to user needs. Too bad many users of these solutions think that a "socket" is where you screw in a light bulb; more than a few of them could not spell "TCP/IP" - BUT, they ALL know what GUI looks like. Solutions that don't have that look are a VERY tough sell.

My current perception is that RTI is in good hands but, it is too bad it wasn't in those hands long ago when we needed "ARev for Windows".

I will look at OI-32 and hope that I don't have to put in the bookcase among my other "why did I buy this" collection (OI 3.something is there now).

Hello Pat

The short answer is yes. With OpenEngine running natively on Linux (not samba) I would have a cost effective, fast and stable server solution to offer clients. Do you know if arev will work as the client? In a perfect world I could use an OI client and development tools for Windows or Java (arev type development environment) for Windows and Linux.

Here is a bit more information. It is taken from an article entitled "Troubleshooting MS-DOS-Based Programs in Windows, which is published on the Microsoft web site (Q16521, I believe, although the number may have been truncated).

This article applies to all versions of Windows XP, 2000, and NT 4.

"…The following functions do not work in Windows:

All MS_DOS functions except task-switching API's are supported.

Block mode device drivers are not supported…

Interrupt 10 function 1A returns 0…

Interrupt 13 calls that deal with prohibited disk access are not supported.

Interrupt 18 (ROM BASIC) generated a message that ROM BASIC is not supported.

Interrupt 19 will not reboot the computer, but will cleanly terminate the current virtual DOS machine (VDM).

Interrupt 2F dealing with DOSKEY program call outs (AX=4800) is not supported.

Microsoft CD-ROM Extensions (MSCDEX functions 2, 3, 4, 5, 8, E and F are not supported.

The 16 bit Windows subsystem on an x86 computer supports enhanced mode programs; It does not, however, support 16 bit VxDs…which lets the computer run Enhanced mode programs, such as Microsoft Visual Basic, on RISC computers.

This means that Windows does not support 16 bit programs that require unrestricted access to hardware. If your prgram requires this, it will not work in Windows NT, Windows 2000, or Windows XP…"

Likewise, the converse appears to be true. If your program does not require unrestricted access to hardware, it appears that it will work fine in all current versions of Windows, including XP. I am not certain of every function listed above, but I have not encountered anything in AREV that has caused a problem for us in this regard.

Hmm can't believe we missed this .

Sprezz have both a 16 bit (for current OI) and 32 bit (for OI TNG) Delphi component which you can just drop onto a Delphi form for reading/writing/accessing etc Arev/OI files/programs.

The Sprezzatura Group

World Leaders in all things RevSoft

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